Host: Alex , Research Partner, Mint Ventures

Guest: DaYu , a well-known Chinese-language crypto KOL

Recording time: October 27, 2025

Hello everyone, welcome to WEB3 Mint To Be, initiated by Mint Ventures. Here, through continuous questioning and in-depth thinking, we clarify facts, explore reality, and seek consensus in the WEB3 world. We aim to clarify the logic behind trending topics, provide insights that penetrate the events themselves, and introduce diverse perspectives for thinking.

Alex: Today we've invited our old friend, Mr. Dayu, who has participated in our program before. Mr. Dayu, please introduce yourself.

DaYu: I mainly do research and trade cryptocurrencies, and I also follow stocks. I've known Alex for several years and have always admired his investment style and character. So when Alex invited me to talk about memes, although I don't have much experience, I was happy to exchange ideas and learn from each other.

When to start investing in memes and specific targets

Alex: Okay, thank you, Da Yu. Da Yu is very humble; he's a top-tier KOL in the Chinese-speaking world. I've been following Da Yu's investment philosophy, including his insights on meme trading, and I feel there's a lot to learn from him. Given the current market situation, from a business perspective, the Web3 industry hasn't seen many particularly hardcore business trends; instead, there have been many trading opportunities in memes. So today we've chosen this topic and invited Da Yu to share his thoughts with us.

Okay, let's get into today's podcast. Could you first tell us when you started doing meme trading? Do you remember why you started, and which project you were involved in at the time?

DaYu: The first meme I officially participated in, as I recall, was called People. I was probably drawn to People because of its unique characteristics; its essence resonated with someone like me with a liberal arts background—I essentially brainwashed myself. However, I barely mentioned People in the following years. At that time, I didn't understand memes and had no investment experience; I just genuinely liked them and thought they had great reach. I even promoted them daily in Telegram groups, which led to a huge pitfall. Looking back, memes that rise during FOMO inevitably fall when FOMO ends. Back then, I was somewhat of a celebrity in the community; everyone who used People knew I was constantly talking about it, building it, and being bullish on it. I genuinely believed in it, but my actual holding was very small because my initial capital was limited—I remember holding around a few hundred thousand RMB. Looking back now, that was a ridiculously small position. But it also shows that I'm a very honest person, full of passion, and I say what I think. Later, I discovered some things that made me very upset. For example, when we were listing on Binance, I always hoped everyone would join me in building the community. When I mentioned listing on Binance, everyone became FOMO (fear of missing out), and the price went up. I posted reminders, hoping everyone would participate in building the community and like various posts, but I found that no one was interested. My voice was drowned out; everyone only cared about the price. At that point, I had a vague feeling that something was wrong, that people weren't thinking the same way I was. I was full of enthusiasm, thinking this meme was fun and had high ideals for it, but I found that others weren't. Later, through this experience, I grew and realized that the crypto world really is a speculative arena, and many people are bad, evil, and shady. They're playing along with you, buying and selling; they're also part of the market. But some people, when faced with a contributor like me, would say after the price dropped: "Why aren't you posting? Why aren't you building? Are you selling? Are you ripping off newbies?" I was so naive then, and I felt very indignant. I decided I would never do anything like that again. The lesson I learned is that after People, I haven't participated in any meme projects. For example, if a project team approaches me, offers me investment opportunities, or a friend tells me to buy, I won't say yes. I always do my own research and make my own decisions. Even the projects I share are ones I've personally invested in and believe in. I only share things I've personally invested in. I just want to earn money ethically because the past experiences have been too traumatic. But from a meme perspective, People has been a huge takeaway for me. For instance, after People, I started thinking that all these meme communities are actually a false premise; they're just a bunch of fanatical speculators, even gamblers. Everyone's so fanatical—that's not a community, that's a toxic atmosphere.

Later, because of this, when NFTs were just emerging, I thought it seemed like a community, so I invested in Jay Bear, buying it for 0.25 ETH, and it peaked at 8 ETH. But then I realized the project team was just there to fleece investors. I thought everyone was a good person, and you probably are too; people like us tend to think the best of things, assuming they wanted to grow and empower others, and we imagined all sorts of things for them. In the end, of course, it crashed badly, and I didn't sell much. Later, NFTs like BAYC and Goblin were actually very similar to today's meme culture. For example, Goblin was a very unique original, incredibly ugly thing. The Goblin project also gave me my first pot of gold. I bought it for 0.25 ETH, and when I sold it, the average price was about 5 ETH, peaking at 8 ETH. At that time, ETH was worth several thousand US dollars, so I suddenly earned thousands of ETH, which was my first pot of gold. But looking back now, from a meme perspective, I think it's impossible to miss out on BAYC again. I did miss out on BAYC back then, for various reasons. For instance, the people who participate in BAYC have their own circles in North America, and they have a blast offline. As someone who's more of a homebody and doesn't mingle in those circles, it's hard for me to understand or fit in with that kind of thing.

That's roughly the process. Later, my skill level increased. This increased skill level actually has a bottom line, an unspoken rule. I began to realize that all memes are products of emotions, consensus, and narratives, and that most meme creators are primarily driven by speculation. Through this process, my own meme-making skills began to grow. I'll discuss the specifics later.

The shift in views on memes and the reasons behind it

Alex: DaYu just mentioned that when you first got involved, it wasn't just about buying and selling; you were also helping to build the community for the first meme you encountered, People, hoping to expand its influence and get more people involved—what we call "Build." It's been about four or five years since you first got involved with this project, as People was a representative meme from the previous round. You also mentioned participating in NFTs, many assets similar to memes. So, from the beginning until now, how have your views on memes and your investment approach changed? What were the key events or reasons behind these changes? Could you summarize them for us?

Da Yu: Okay. I think your perspective on the evolution of memes is excellent. Because in the crypto world, memes have gone through several distinct phases. The first was the early, uncharted territory, when nobody knew about them. Back then, Elon Musk was the one who coined "Doge," and I think he was the first big shot to understand this concept, and he personally orchestrated it all. Musk once said, "Whoever controls the meme controls the world." At that time, Doge went from a coin used for tipping payments to a coin that went viral during that bull market. I heard that a big shot bought Doge with 100 Bitcoins at a high price, then it increased tenfold, and he sold it for 800 Bitcoins. I was shocked at the time, not understanding how they knew all this. Looking back now, it's actually quite easy to understand. People like Musk know that narratives and consensus can be combined with tokens to create an economy. This is something entirely new, something neither Buffett nor traditional investment logic has addressed. But not addressing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It definitely exists, and you can sense it with a little reasoning. That was the early, uncharted territory; those who understood it back then were already financially independent. From Doge to Shib, these are all examples of this: celebrity involvement and strong dissemination. For instance, Shib also had Elon Musk's involvement, making it visible to cryptocurrency traders worldwide. When the attention of all cryptocurrency traders worldwide is focused on this, and it has no inherent burdens or delivery pressures—unlike projects that need to prove user numbers and revenue—meme has none of these burdens; it's gambling. And gambling, drugs, and prostitution are three age-old human needs. The demand for gambling is enormous. Add dissemination and tokens to the demand for gambling, and it becomes a simple and easy casino. Alex and I aren't the type to gamble our entire fortunes in Macau, but we must admit that many people in the world, once they start gambling, can't stop, experiencing FOMO and even going crazy. A large portion of people are in an intermediate state, enjoying gambling and becoming addicted to it. Therefore, Dogecoin and Shib become easier to understand in this context.

The second stage is the growth period. Musk can't keep talking about it all the time, so what happens? The crypto world has its own market makers and KOLs. This led to a bunch of coins, such as People, Bonk, Pepe, WIF, and Bome. Bonk was one of them, which I bought right after leaving my previous job to enter the crypto world full-time. At the time, Bonk increased fivefold, which was quite satisfying for me. Much of my current wealth started with Bonk. I vividly remember that back then, most money was tied up offline, like houses and cash; the amount in the market was only 100,000 USDT. I used that 100,000 USDT to buy Bonk, which turned into hundreds of thousands of USDT. Later, I thought it would drop to zero and disappear, but the market makers were very aggressive, and it increased 100 times, right after the bear market—it was amazing. Then there was Pepe. When its market capitalization was $20 million, I tweeted about it, but at that time my understanding was limited; I didn't understand narratives, value, or long-term sustainability, so I missed out on a lot. I bought Pepe when its market cap was $20 million, but sold it when it reached around $100 million, later growing to several billion. I also missed out on WIF because there was little discussion about it in the Chinese-speaking world. Bome was a rare large-pool coin at the time, with a very large scale; the money invested was directly added to the pool, creating a lot of FOMO. That was the growth phase, and everyone was looking for targets that could create market synergy. This market synergy means that everyone notices it, there's a good narrative, and a good story to tell. Ordi was also a meme in its growth phase. From the perspective of traditional value investing, its intrinsic value is zero, but its price can become very high because of those attributes.

Then came the final period, the current period of destruction. After Pump came out, creating memes became incredibly easy. Previously, creating a meme required several people: technical developers, website creators, Twitter administrators, and professional market makers like Pepe, who manipulated the market. It was very complex. Therefore, there weren't many people involved in memes back then. But after Pump, anyone could create a coin. Even the death of a squirrel could generate countless coins. A celebrity's comment, Musk's picture, could instantly become a coin. Everything was tokenized. For example, NEIRO (the dog), Big Dog, Lowercase Dog, Uppercase Dog, and Initial Capital Dog, etc. At this point, memes became rampant. The early stages likely had only two: Dogecoin and Shib, both reaching market capitalizations of hundreds of billions and tens of billions of dollars. During the growth stage, there were also memes in the tens of billions, such as Pepe, which together had tens of billions of dollars in funding. Assuming the cryptocurrency market's total funding is tens of billions, this is reasonable. Then came the period of destruction: with so many memes appearing, hundreds or thousands every day. Today there's a hot topic with good consensus, a good narrative, and a good angle; tomorrow there's an even better one. What happens then? It's over. Memes have very short lifespans and die quickly. Like Bonk, even if you didn't sell at the first peak, it didn't matter; it could still rise 100 times later, allowing you to hold it for a year, two years, or three. The same goes for Hat Dog; it only went to zero in the end. But things are different during the devastation phase. Of course, there are outliers during the devastation phase, such as Trump's coin with its significant influence. One release, and the whole world saw it; the price instantly soared to 70 billion FDV. That was the end of it, similar to Doge and Shib's hundreds of billions. While there's more capital in the crypto market now than before, the overall valuation range is roughly the same because it's essentially a game of musical chairs.

The intrinsic value of a meme is zero. Its price is driven by short-term emotions, narratives, and gambling demand, but once the capital pushes it to a certain point, there's no more room for growth. Therefore, I think these stages are very distinct. Those who don't keep up with these changes are easily taken advantage of. In fact, many people don't keep up. I saw some rather foolish comments on Twitter saying, "The Pandora you mentioned has plummeted." But actually, when I said that, it had already risen tenfold. They said, "It's gone to zero, you're just fleecing people, your words are useless," but these people are stuck in the old era; they can't possibly make money in investing. Because the value of altcoins is zero. This statement, made by a Binance customer service representative, is particularly classic and became a popular meme. The intrinsic value of altcoins is zero; how can you expect its price to keep rising? Impossible, it will eventually all go to zero. A good friend once asked me, "Can I still buy this meme at the bottom? Can I still buy it?" I said, when in doubt, think about Trumpcoin. Trumpcoin is the best meme, the most powerful meme; look at its candlestick chart. If you want to buy at the bottom, if you want to find value, think more about Trumpcoin. This trick works really well. Even I do it; when I'm filled with wonderful fantasies about a meme, I think of Trump coins.

The position and role of memes in the investment system

Alex: OK, DaYu just told us about his understanding of memes, including the evolution of the entire genre. He mentioned a key point: from the initial primitive stage, through the growth stage, to the current destructive stage, the total market capitalization of all memes in the crypto world is probably only around several hundred to a hundred billion. It's just that there are too many destructive memes now, so the amount of funds and attention allocated to each meme has become very small, and its lifespan and market capitalization ceiling have also become very low.

As DaYu just mentioned, your understanding of meme is based on the principle that "altcoins have zero value," as Binance clients have stated. However, I see that you are actually practicing some investment operations with meme. So, where does the meme asset stand in your current investment system? What role does it play?

Da Yu: Yes, the value of a meme is zero, but its price can be infinite, which is where the opportunity lies. Therefore, I consider memes a high-risk, high-return endeavor. Many people look down on memes or don't understand the crypto market; they're old-school investors. While I'm humble, I also believe that anyone who doesn't keep up with the times will inevitably be eliminated by those who constantly iterate. In this high-risk strategy, I think the most important thing is the odds. For example, when I buy a meme, based on my comprehensive judgment—whatever that judgment is, whether it's narrative economics or "stupid investment theory," I don't care—as long as you find your logic, it can be repeatedly applied. In this process, if you make 10 trades in total, and three or half of them result in losses, your losses might be 30% or 40%. Why? Because when I buy memes, I mostly buy those with high liquidity; I don't gamble on them going to zero, and I buy very few. In this case, if I lose 50% each time, then I've lost 50% of my 10 trades.

10. However, there are five other high-risk, high-return opportunities, such as 5x, 10x, or even 100x returns, which offer substantial profits. For example, Trump Coin; I acquired a large amount of tokens at around 1.2x. And during Bome, those tokens saw dozens of times their initial value in just a few days—it was incredibly volatile. Given these odds, I think memes are a very good investment. In fact, when discussing memes, one can think about the entire crypto market; the logic is the same. For example, Bitcoin certainly has value, though its value system differs from memes. However, in terms of sentiment, consensus, and dissemination, they are the same. What I mean is, if we went back 10 years, even if we didn't recognize Bitcoin's intrinsic value and considered it worthless, from the perspective of dissemination and consensus, it could still be considered part of a traditional investment portfolio. So, I think if I went back 10 years, with my current understanding, I would definitely buy Bitcoin. Because my current investment system endorses this barbell strategy—high risk, high return. In the crypto world, I once said something that spread widely: "Technology is insignificant; consensus is invaluable." In the crypto world, any development team can create some technology and things, but the actual revenue generated is minimal—few users, little income. Such technology is essentially worthless. This isn't to deny all technology, but rather that most crypto technologies are like this. The saying "consensus is invaluable" means that even with poor technology and product-market fit (PMF), a strong consensus narrative can be highly valuable. This has already been proven. For example, PEPE: those who looked down on PEPE but bought it at a $20 million market cap ended up with billions of dollars. The same applies to Trump tokens; they rose from $1 or a fraction of a dollar to billions or tens of billions of dollars. At this point, debating right or wrong, insisting that avoiding memes is the only correct approach, is futile and merely self-deception. The human brain sometimes disguises many biases as "I'm smarter than others," which is actually very dangerous.

I feel that the narratives, consensus, and emotions within memes are constantly at play in real life. For example, people used to read news from NetEase News, Tencent News, and Xinhua News Agency. Then Toutiao emerged, believing that the key wasn't getting accurate news, but rather enjoying the content. That's why Toutiao is called "Recommendation"—recommending things that make you feel more and more satisfied. When my dad used to use Toutiao, I looked down on him, saying, "Why do you always forward wrong, stupid, and outdated information?" Then one day, I suddenly realized something: it wasn't Toutiao that was stupid, nor was it my dad's problem; it was actually me who was stupid. Why? Because I had to understand what Toutiao was doing, including its later shift to Douyin (TikTok). Now everyone is inseparable from Douyin; children and the elderly are constantly scrolling through their phones. Of course, many wise people don't use it to avoid falling into the trap of emotions and consensus. The cryptocurrency world is essentially tokenizing these aspects of human nature. From Doge to today's memes, I think if you think about it systematically, the cryptocurrency world, after having tokens, tokenized everything. Whoever can capture this tokenization trajectory will make money. Moreover, for me personally, memes have helped me achieve many of my life goals, so I will continue to pay attention to this.

Let me elaborate with another example: Pop Mart. I started paying attention to it too late; I only learned about the company when it had risen to around 150 or 160. When I saw that, I exclaimed, "Oh my god, if only I had known sooner!" Of course, there's still a chance now, as it has also fallen quite a bit. I think Pop Mart is my favorite company because the logic I just mentioned best applies to it among all traditional companies. It sells emotions and consensus. The so-called IP means that you don't want to buy fake Pop Mart products; you have to buy the genuine article, the good stuff. Actually, luxury brands like LV were originally used by royalty and nobility before the French Revolution. When the king was beheaded, the queen abdicated, and the powerful class disappeared, what happened to the tailors? They had to make a living by producing limited editions. And as a result, limited editions became even more popular. That's why I think Pop Mart is a company I really like. These kinds of companies have a characteristic: their brand value grows larger and larger. If they make the Pop Mart IP stronger and stronger, and people recognize it, it will become increasingly valuable. Another example is Laopu Gold, which is also a speculative stock. I've noticed some female friends are still willing to pay a premium for gold even when prices are high; they simply love it. I was quite shocked to hear this. A company that can get people to pay a premium is a great company. Pop Mart is the same; through its blind box mechanism and its own IP, it continues to evolve. I absolutely adore companies like that. So, it all comes down to Musk's words—whoever controls memes controls the world.

Selection criteria and references for memes

Alex: I understand. The issue we just discussed is the position of meme assets within Dayu's investment system. Dayu mentioned the barbell strategy, where one side represents blue-chip assets—assets that can be held long-term; while memes are on the other side of the bar, representing high risk but also high potential returns. Of course, this also requires considerable speculative skill and a grasp of market sentiment. So, based on your years of experience and practice, what are the key criteria you use when selecting a meme—these high-risk, high-return meme assets on the right side of the barbell? Or, what are your typical reference points when selecting a meme?

Daewoo: I've summarized a few angles myself, some of which may no longer be applicable.

First, there's the issue of naturalness. Back at Ordi, I said that natural diamonds are always better than lab-grown ones. Naturalness means it's a serendipitous creation. A meme isn't something anyone can just pull together a few developers and make up a story to create. If you can make up a story, so can anyone; if you can pull in developers, so can anyone. That kind of thing would quickly become commonplace and impossible to hype. For example, Ordi started as an inscription, a technical idea, not a meme. Ordi is the first part of that inscription, and a meme coin was born. That's like inscribing something on the blockchain, creating a token that can be traded. It was the first token, that's naturalness. The second isn't natural; it's just following the trend. Bitcoin is natural, a peer-to-peer blockchain system; Litecoin is far inferior. Now anyone can copy a set of code to create a "Chinese coin," but it's useless. Naturalness means it's not something that can be developed simply by wanting to.

The second is originality; ideally, it should have unique innovation. Take Bome, for example. He created a "money-giving" scheme. Money-giving itself isn't new, but he managed to give away a huge amount of money, which is what makes it interesting. It's hard to replicate. A scale of tens of millions of dollars, coupled with a grand vision, makes it impressive. Of course, many later "money-giving" schemes emerged, becoming what people call "scumbag" schemes—they take the money and run. For example, "Brother Machi" (a pseudonym) took the money, added a small pool, and then ran off with tens of millions of dollars.

The third factor is its virality. Whether a meme can spread widely depends on the scale of its narrative. For example, if Musk posts a picture, it's just one of countless tweets, so its reach is limited. But if he says he changed his signature, it can go viral, reaching $100 million; then he changes his profile picture and name, and the price goes up again—that's virality. Trump personally issuing cryptocurrency and building a website would have even greater virality. So, these are some of the angles to consider. Of course, every meme is different, making them very difficult to replicate. For example, Bome is about sending money, Pandora solves the NFT problem, Trump Coin is a presidential-issued cryptocurrency, and Ordi is a Bitcoin inscription—each one is unique.

Another reason I participated was that the entry point couldn't be too high. Too high, and the safety margin is poor. For example, the most successful meme in the crypto world only has a total market capitalization of a few tens of billions. Now, a meme is already worth 20 billion, like PEPE, which I'm not very interested in. Pepe is worth 7 billion; theoretically, can it surpass Trump's coin? I think it's very difficult. From a narrative and communication perspective, it's unlikely to beat it. Currently, Trump's coin is worth several billion; even if Pepe increases several times, it probably won't reach that level. Besides, memes have zero intrinsic value; if a bear market arrives, their appeal will be greatly diminished.

So, in the world of memes, I'm "daring to be the last to enter." I'm generally not the first to enter, because entering early requires a lot of diligence and a high trading frequency. I can't afford to spend that much time. I let the market funds filter them. For example, if several memes revolve around the same narrative, and you can't say which one is the orthodox one, then let the market funds run. That's the game of capital, and real money is the most authentic indicator. Also, entering later has its advantages. For example, I generally only consider entering when the market capitalization is over $10 million, which greatly reduces the probability of going from nothing to zero. For example, if I want to buy 1% of the tokens, entering at a market capitalization of $10 million would be $100,000. Given my capital size, making 10 trades a year is acceptable. And getting 1% of a meme is about right. Some people aim for 10%, but if they enter early and take too much, the big players might exit, others won't dare to enter, and it's easy to lose.

Therefore, when deciding whether to participate, I mainly look at the price, and then combine it with the points mentioned earlier: naturalness, originality, and dissemination, before making a decision.

Positive and negative examples of meme investing

Alex: Okay, Da Yu just explained his criteria for meme selection, including his investment methods and thinking, very clearly. Could you share some practical cases from your past meme investment experience? Just pick two: the first is the most successful case in your memory, and the second is a case you think was relatively bad. Then talk about what you learned from these two cases and your reflections.

DaYu: Actually, I'm quite satisfied with four of them. The first is Bome. As mentioned before, it's a platform that attracts investment, showing a strategic vision, and the timing was excellent, with very active on-chain funds. I entered when its market capitalization was around $30 million, which was already quite high at that time. Many people claim to have made tens of thousands of times their initial investment, like those who invested and immediately made a lot. I entered then and took a relatively large stake. It was listed on Binance in just three days, which was incredibly exciting, and my account balance skyrocketed. When the news of Bome's Binance listing came out, there was a surge in price, and I was very optimistic about it, so I held it for several days. I thought it was possible for it to surpass Pepe. Pepe was worth $7 billion at the time, while Bome was only worth $1 billion. If it increased sevenfold, I could make a fortune in one go. But after it was listed on Binance, I reminded myself that was enough and decided to sell. I sold it as it fell, but I didn't have any reservations; I just wanted to convert it into cash. It continued to fall later; I don't remember the exact number of zeros before the drop, but it was roughly from 0.2 to around 0.15. After I sold, it rose back to around 0.2, and I felt a bit regretful, thinking I would have made a lot more money if I hadn't sold. In the end, I kept a small position, selling as it fell each day. The second one was Trump Coin. When I saw it, it already had a market capitalization of 1 billion, but it was still quite early, about 10 minutes after it went live. I also shared it in my group, and many group members made huge profits in this wave. Among Bome, Trump Coin, Ordi, and Pandora, some group members made hundreds of millions of dollars. After Bome, some group members sent me red envelopes, some worth tens of thousands of dollars. Four or five people achieved a leap in social class. With Trump Coin, because everyone had money in hand, they were even more aggressive. I also held a lot of Trump Coin myself, acting aggressively with a large position, and it rose very quickly. But I started selling around 10 times the initial investment because the volatility was too high and I got a little scared. A 10x return on a large position in just two or three hours is a real test of composure. At that time, I was talking to group members and exchanging ideas with friends, my mind was in complete chaos, and I acted reflexively. I noticed that 0Xsun's actions were exactly the same as mine—the timing and proportions of buying and selling were similar; I sold 90%, he sold 80%. In hindsight, these were all wrong decisions. Mainly, it was too chaotic at that time. Every fluctuation in my account was millions of dollars, there was too much information to judge, and I was under immense mental stress. At the time, I felt that a market capitalization of 10 billion was a huge hurdle for many memes. The reason I call it a mistake is because opportunities like a president issuing a cryptocurrency are rare in a lifetime. I didn't step back to think critically; instead, I got caught up in the information overload. So, while talking to you today, I suddenly realized that sometimes when making important decisions, it might be helpful to calm down alone, like taking a walk in a pleasant environment, to think things through—like meditation. During the Bome event, I happened to be strolling in a park in Hong Kong. There was an exhibition about Bruce Lee and Jin Yong. As I looked at it, I reflected and gradually realized I shouldn't be too greedy, so I sold. That was a relatively good sell without a good framework, while the Trump coin event did have a better framework. I did two things with Trump coin. First, I sold it because I had a good investment framework that allowed me to reap substantial profits on most memes without getting trapped. I could quickly exit at the slightest sign of movement; if the 15-minute candlestick chart broke down, I would leave. I did the same with Trump coin, which in hindsight was a mistake because such a narrative is rare.

Speaking of failed cases, this is a case study. After Trump's cryptocurrency, I realized that for the right thing to do, you have to be ruthless and think things through objectively. I wondered, with such a great opportunity as a president issuing a cryptocurrency, would other countries follow suit? Which president was most likely? I thought of Argentine President Milley, who was known for his reforms, international reputation, and pro-cryptocurrency stance. If he issued a cryptocurrency, it would definitely be a hit, and I thought I'd wait until he did to make a killing. Sure enough, he issued a cryptocurrency. I saw it early on and bought it within minutes, even urging others to buy in the group chat. My investment quickly doubled; I went in with a large position. The pool was huge, and trading was active, so I could buy as much as I wanted. After doubling my investment, everything seemed to be going as I expected, which boosted my confidence. But at this point, I didn't follow my trading strategy. I just watched the price drop, my profits vanished, and my principal started to fall. This wasn't right; how could it drop so much? At first, the drop wasn't a problem, but when it reached my cost basis, I remembered Buffett's adage, "Never lose your principal," and I believed that was even more crucial for speculation. At that point, I didn't understand why, but I still cut my losses, losing about 20%. Although the loss wasn't large, I was very hurt. Later, the Argentine president denied it, turning it into a farcical spectacle. In retrospect, the lesson is that you should be bold enough to seize big opportunities, but you must still adhere to the basic ironclad rule: don't lose your principal, or at least only lose a small amount; don't have a gambler's mentality. Like Trump's cryptocurrency, in this retrospective, selling at 10x was already a good move. I think the most important thing in the crypto world is to survive long enough. As long as you survive long enough, opportunities to make big money will always exist, and you'll get rich sooner or later.

Essential qualities of an excellent meme investor

Alex: Okay, Da Yu just gave three very detailed case studies. There's a prevailing opinion in the market and investor communities that whether you can invest in memes, or achieve good results in meme investing, heavily relies on talent. In your opinion, including both innate abilities and skills developed through practice, what qualities must an excellent meme investor possess?

Daewoo: I'm not entirely sure if talent is required, because the definition is quite complex. But I think that whether investing in memes, anything else, or even whether to invest at all, it all comes down to personality. Everyone has a different personality, and personality is actually included in talent or ability. For example, someone who reads very little and has a low IQ might have a personality that aligns with their inherent nature. And on top of that, there are many different types of personalities. Some people are easily distracted, have many ideas, and change their minds quickly; others are very loyal, holding onto something they like or want for a long time. These factors all have a significant impact on investment results. If I were to invest in memes myself, I'd say you have to be a "player." A player should never date, never fall in love. When you buy a meme, you should know its value is zero. You're just going through the motions, enjoying the good times. But if you sense anything amiss, you roll your eyes and walk away without hesitation. But if you're a devoted person and insist on investing in memes, I think you should just try it out a little. Different personalities determine different results. So, when asked whether talent is needed and what qualities are required, I think the most important thing is personality; there's nothing else.

Assuming a suitable personality, some people are simply looking to make money, believing memes offer high risk and high reward, and that they might even succeed. For example, if someone has a neutral personality, then I've summarized a few key advantages: First, some people have limited capital but are extremely diligent. Two outstanding examples are oXsun and LaserCat. They both have their own active communities, constantly monitoring various memes. There's also a Taiwanese player called Big D. They pay attention to almost every contract and meme. They might participate when a coin's market capitalization is only $10,000, or even during the internal trading phase. Their trading frequency is naturally very high. For instance, if I spend $100,000 to buy a coin when it's worth $10 million, they might only spend $100, and it's already increased 10,000 times. That's diligence. Of course, other qualities are also essential, because 99% of early-stage coins go to zero; the more diligent you are, the more you might lose. But even my approach of daring to be the first to act requires diligence. For example, when Trump's cryptocurrency came out, I happened to be in front of my computer—that's a crucial factor. Because I spend every day in front of my computer, reading and studying, maintaining a regular routine. If I hadn't seen it, I would have missed the opportunity. If I missed it, the market value would be $1 billion in ten minutes, $3 billion in thirty minutes, and two hours later, maybe while I was out eating and didn't check my phone, it would be $10 billion. By the time it reached $10 billion, I would have already sold off my holdings for the first time. If I wanted to gamble again then, I'd need a lot of luck. And if I took a large position, a 50% drop was commonplace.

Secondly, vision. I can't elaborate too much on vision. A few years ago, I had very little vision and my skills were quite poor. This requires a lot of training. You need to be outgoing, opportunistic, and even a bit of a scumbag, and you need to train through real money—both losing and making money—then your vision will naturally improve. It's not about playing around blindly; it's about playing with judgment each time, and afterwards, reviewing, reflecting, summarizing, and improving.

Third, luck. It sounds mystical, but I think people really need a bit of luck. Without luck, it's very difficult to succeed in things like meme trading. The value of a meme itself is zero. No matter how accurate your judgment is, it's still like playing Texas Hold'em—there's a lot of calculation involved, but a bit of luck is also necessary. How do you improve your luck? From a mystical perspective, it's about doing good deeds and being a good person. I have a vague idea that the wealth we acquire is actually something that fate temporarily entrusts to us. To be able to handle wealth, you'd better be a good person, idealistic, and able to give back to society and help those in need after earning a lot of money. I think that will improve your luck.

Another factor is courage. Generally, good investments, such as value investing, don't require courage. If you understand it, you'll naturally want to invest, and you won't be afraid of a drop because you know where its value lies. However, playing the meme game requires courage because it truly involves gambling, luck, and boldness. And boldness also needs to be distinguished as genuine or feigned. Some people are very bold before buying, but become timid afterward; that's not true courage. Truly bold people, like Liang Xi, are genuinely bold. He can make 200 million in one night, or lose 200 million in three days, but he dares to try again next time—that's true courage. If ordinary people like us tried that a few times, our mentality would collapse long ago. It's not that having a lot of money necessarily makes someone bold; it's related to personality. For example, someone who has earned 200 million, but is a cautious and thoughtful person, wouldn't say, "Now I have money, let's gamble 100 million." Another person might only have 10 million and might say, "Go all in! If I lose, I'll just go back to delivering food." That's the difference in personality.

Finally, I think a good meme investor needs to know how to cut losses. Memes are essentially high-risk, high-reward investments. But if you can control the risk better, the returns will definitely increase significantly. Risk control means buying as cheaply as possible and getting out quickly when danger arises. If there's no chance to get out, you must strictly cut your losses. For example, I bought Argentine coin before. I was optimistic about it and didn't see much risk, but it kept falling. I knew someone must be dumping large amounts of stock, probably market makers or the project team selling off their holdings; otherwise, there was no explanation. So I decisively cut my losses. Cutting losses must be ruthless and resolute. I've noticed many people who get trapped after buying altcoins act like this: they buy 1 million worth, and when it drops to 900,000, they say, "It's okay." If I were to say at this point that the project is actually bad and already risky, he would rush to curse me; when it drops to 800,000 or 700,000, he would say, "It'll rebound soon"; when it drops to 500,000, he would stop cursing anyone and fall silent; when it drops to 400,000 or 300,000, he would simply stop looking, numb and used to it. I think I shouldn't do that. If I bought 1 million worth and it drops to 800,000 or 700,000, I would cut my losses, and I would still have 700,000 left. If it drops very quickly, for example, if I wake up in the morning and my 1 million has become 300,000, I can still cut my losses. I would think differently: if I had 300,000 right now, would I buy this coin now? If the answer is no, then I would sell. I wouldn't think, "I lost 1 million to 300,000," I would only think, "I have 300,000 now, should I keep it?"

Balance between MIME and other asset classes

Alex: Okay, that's very specific. We know that meme is one of the asset classes of Dayu Investment, and its investment categories and target types are very diverse. In your current investment system, could you share with everyone what other asset classes besides meme? And how do you balance the relationship between these blue-chip and value investment asset classes and meme investments?

Daewoo: Actually, I would describe myself as a value investor. Of course, this self-assessment might sound a bit funny, since much of my money comes from speculation. So why do I call myself a value investor? Because I believe the value of a meme is zero, while its price can be infinite. In this process, I've clearly explained the logic of "the price can be infinite," and explained why and how I participate. So this part is more of a tool for me to make money. I think that in making money, whether it's investing or speculating, it's all about making money; there's no superior or inferior choice. The key is whether it suits you. If it does, then do it. I call myself a value investor because I deeply believe in compound interest and the intrinsic value of companies. Buying stocks is buying a company. For example, I don't care if a stock goes up today or down tomorrow. What I often think about is, if this company is currently worth $10 billion, and I have $10 billion, would I be willing to buy the whole thing and then leave it alone, enjoying the dividends of the company's growth as a major shareholder? I'd earn whatever it earns—it's that simple. From a balanced perspective, I think the two are actually harmonious for me. The intrinsic value of a meme is zero, while what I truly hold for the long term are things with high intrinsic value.

In terms of asset classes, my main focus is still on stocks. As for gold, I think Bitcoin is a viable alternative. I've also invested in some movies with others; the returns will be clear after their release, as I have a bit of a dream of becoming a director myself. In addition, I have a company registered overseas, and my next step is to invest in equity projects like SpaceX. Equity investments are essentially early-stage investments. SpaceX currently has a market capitalization of $400 billion, which, based on metrics like PE, is actually overvalued, hence many early investors are willing to transfer their existing shares. However, I'm very optimistic about this type of equity investment. When humanity truly enters the interstellar age, the market capitalization of these companies could reach tens of trillions, or even hundreds of trillions. Regarding traditional investments, I prefer companies like Tencent and Pinduoduo. Tencent's strength is well-known, and I really like Pinduoduo's business model, which is essentially "reversing" capitalism. In terms of business model, I wouldn't compare it to Amazon; I think Pinduoduo aims to eliminate all global retailers, including Costco, Walmart, and Sam's Club. Some might say, "How can you compare them? It can't even beat JD.com." But I believe this business model guarantees its success. This judgment is actually similar to the logic Musk used when he was building electric cars. At that time, there were no electric cars in the world, but he said that electric cars would replace gasoline cars because they were more efficient, and he eventually succeeded. With enough capable people to drive it, it can be done. Huang Zheng is young, so I really like this type of company.

Advice for new meme investors

Alex: Now let's move on to our last question for today. Many of our podcast listeners are newcomers to Web3, either before officially entering the field or before making their first Web3 investment. Let's say you have a friend who's new to Web3 investing. He listened to this episode and thinks memes suit his personality and wants to try them out. If you had to give this newcomer a maximum of three pieces of advice on investing in memes, what would it be?

Da Yu: For newcomers, I think it's best not to invest and hold onto Bitcoin first. Bitcoin is already risky enough, posing a significant challenge for many newcomers. My advice is to understand Bitcoin first. Bitcoin is designed to counter the increase in fiat currency, and fiat currency will inevitably increase. For example, the US has an annual income of $5 trillion but pays $1.5 trillion in interest, which is unsustainable. If the US earns more than it spends on its military, it will have to increase its money supply. In this situation, Bitcoin, like gold, will continue its upward trajectory against fiat currency. If Bitcoin catches up with gold, it has more than ten times the potential. Compared to gold, gold has a stronger consensus within ten years; but a hundred years from now, I believe Bitcoin will have a 100% stronger consensus. I've always had a belief, also related to SpaceX, that the gold reserves in outer space are unlimited. Currently, it's difficult for humans to mine, but in the future, with the development of interstellar spacecraft, Mars colonization, and artificial intelligence, future mining ships could be unmanned, relying on robots to build mineral deposits. Technological development is advancing rapidly, and in this way, gold may become just another ordinary mineral. I've been thinking about how Bitcoin nodes will synchronize when humanity enters the interstellar age. Recently, it was discovered that this problem doesn't exist at all, because quantum communication is specifically designed for things like Bitcoin. Yang Zhenning stated that various countries have been researching quantum communication as a crucial research direction for many years. Regardless of distance, without electromagnetic interference, signals can be exchanged directly. Bitcoin then becomes an interstellar asset, belonging to interstellar citizens. If we enter the interstellar era, the concept of nation-states will weaken. For example, a Martian colony might not be under Earth's jurisdiction, and a new system will emerge. Returning to the point, if you really want to participate, use only 1% of your funds. If you find yourself easily swayed, then go back to the first rule: don't invest. Human nature is difficult to overcome; greed and fear are hard to resist. Using only 1% of your funds allows you to maintain a good mindset regardless of market fluctuations.

Alex: Okay, thank you so much, Mr. Dayu, for sharing so much with us. From his personal experience in meme investing to his abstract investment methodology, and even the parts related to personality and cognition, the content was very rich and inspiring. Thank you again, Dayu, for joining our program. I hope we can discuss other topics together in the future.